HEROJ A NE ZLOČINAC
Written By Ante Baričević
On April 15, 2011, the United Nations International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) found Croatian generals Ante Gotovina and Mladen Markač guilty of war crimes, sentencing them to 24 and 18 years in prison respectively. A third general, Ivan Čermak, was acquitted of all charges and immediately released. In addition, the judge, Alphose Orie, declared that Operation Storm (Operacija Oluja) was a criminal act developed by a “joint criminal venture” that included former Croatian President Franjo Tuđman, former chief of staff Janko Bobetko and former Minister of Defense Gojko Šušak, all now deceased. In a symbolic gesture, the entire Croatian nation was found guilty of defending itself against Serbian aggression during the Homeland War (Domovinski Rat).
JACK BARIĆ’S SEARCHING FOR A STORM (1/9)
The sentiment around the Croatian community in North America is one of shock, bewilderment, betrayal and resentment for the unjustified persecution and sentencing of Croatian generals in the Hague. It is agreed upon that this decision was clearly a political move that completely dismissed and ignored two and a half years of the generals’ defense.
In the time of our parents and grandparents, who came to this country seeking a better life from communism, many took to the streets to protest and demonstrate the injustices of communist Yugoslavia. It is time that we, the next generation of Croatian-Americans and Canadians, follow in their footsteps and have our voices heard in peaceful demonstrations all over the United States and Canada.
We at CroatianSoccerReport.com propose that ALL Croatian communities in North America stand up and participate in the following cities:
Los Angeles, San Francisco Bay Area, Seattle, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Chicago, Milwaukee, Detroit, Cleveland, New York, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Washington D.C., Vancouver and Toronto.
Plans for the demonstration in California are currently in talks and CroatianSoccerReport.com will update the community as progress continues. If you would like to join our cause or add a community that was not displayed above, please contact us at CroatianSoccerReport@gmail.com.
Join us to show the solidarity amongst the Croatian people of North America in their constant support of those who defended Croatia in the Homeland War for Croatian independence. Neka vide da nas ima!
SVE ZA HRVATSKU A HRVATSKU NI ZA ŠTO! ŽIVIO ANTE GOTOVINA I SVI HRVATSKI GENERALI!
Previous Protests:
April 16th, Saturday 6PM
Federation Square, Melbourne, Australia. 4000 people attended.
“Australija je bila jedna od prvih zemalja koja je priznala neovisnost Republike Hrvatske i svi smo joj mi itekako zahvalni na tome povijesnom činu. Tada smo pomislili kako u naše pravo na neovisnost više nitko neće zadirkivati, no, danas 20 godina poslije vidimo da to nije tako. Osudom naših generala osuđena je i Hrvatska. Stvaranje i obrana naše Domovine proglašeni su zločinačkim pothvatom, a utemeljitelj Hrvatske države Frano Tuđman i svi njegovi bliski suradnici proglašeni su zločincima. Iz ove presude vrlo jasno iščitvamo poruku kako nismo imali pravo proglasiti svoju državu te da je nismo smjeli braniti. Bez obzira kakve presude donosili, s ovog mjesta poručujemo kako su Hrvati iz domovine i dijaspore odlučni u obrani časti naših generala i dostojanstva svih nas.”
~Paul Šarić
April 16th, Saturday 2PM Toronto, Canada
April 17th, Sunday 6PM Adelaide, Australia
Wednesday, April 20th, 3:30PM
Njemačko MVP – Auswärtiges Amt Werderscher Markt 1; 10117 Berlin, Germany (U-Bahn-Linie 2, Hausvogteiplatz)
Tuesday, April 26th, 1PM
Sydney Town Hall, Sydney, Australia
Click to enlarge
Click to enlarge
Protest in Sydney, Australia 26/04/2011
Protest in Sydney, Australia 26/04/2011
Protest in Sydney, Australia 26/04/2011
Tuesday, April 26th, 4:30PM
Dag Hammarskjold Plaza on the 1st Avenue side, New York, USA
200 or so people were on hand in New York
200 or so people were on hand in New York
Upcoming Protests:
Saturday, April 30th, 12:00PM Parliment House, Canberra, Australia
Saturday, April 30th, 2:30PM European Union 18 Arkana st Yarralumla, Canberra, Australia
Saturday, April 30th, 12:00PM Federal Building, Los Angeles, USA
Saturday, May 7th, 2PM Parliament Hill, Ottawa, Canada
Document for Gotovina’s judgement
Hehehe, e dragi moji stari, di ste mi vi i di su vasi heroji…Koliko ja znam Oluja je bila van ratnog perioda tako da su zlocinci…:p I ne kaze se dragi moji nesto kao "spremni za dom" ili kako vec, nego "spremte se spremte cetniciiii, silna ce borba da bude"…:P
Bro…God love you but you need to get laid to get rid of that frustration-the sooner, the better.
200 people doesn't seem to be that much a rally, but its a number that is expected with the croatian community in N. America. My friend was at the event and he said the 200 # is about right, maybe 250.
Nice show of support and nothing more. Outside of the Cro media no other media coverage, which is to be expected.
post updated with Australia and New York videos and the protest date for Los Angeles.
I have updated this post with future protests in New York as well as future protest dates and times in Australia. For the Berlin protest, 400 or so Croatians protested earlier this week. All I was able to find was an article in Nacional.
I have added 2 links on the home page, top right hand corner. Top link is for the protests around the world which will be updated ASAP after we are notified. The link right below that one is for donations. This page will also be updated on the progress to $60,000.
please feel free to email me with any questions: paluka81@yahoo.com
I thought Mladic was in Montenegro, or perhaps Republika Srpska. Do the Serbs have spies in Croatia looking for Croatian war criminals? Dude, the most powerful country in the world (the U.S.) with a population of 311 MIL (and therefore a large talent pool of spies to choose from) hasn't even gotten to Bin Ladin yet.
We (Croatians) as a people, are not very good at Public Relations. Even though this is obvious to us who the good guy/bad guy is, it apparently isn't to many out there who don't get that we were simply trying to move the occupying enemy out.
He should have been "hidden" like the Serbs are doing for Mladic. Instead we had Mesic (who is the biggest chetnik of them all) providing info on spots Gotovina had been.
When the Israeli athletes were murdered in the 1972 Olympics, no one went after the Israeli's for following the terrorists over the next decade who participated in the massacre by gunning them down one by one. We do a shitty job of defending our own and have no one else to blame but the government, who gave him up on a silver platter.
PS- Does Croatia have any spies in Serbia trying to hunt down Mladic?….we know the answer to that.
I said it.
WHO SAID THAT IT IS "CRNI VS CRVENI" ON THIS POST?
This suppose to be "CroatianSoccer Report".
Crni and crveni are gone.
You seri,
We all know where you're trying to go with that and that's not going to work here. The majority of posters on this site have either lived there, worked there, spent time there, gone to numerous games, know what daily life is like there, etc. It's not going to work.
Plus, Gotovina is one of the things that domovina and dijaspora Hrvati agree on. So don't start.
Sounds like a bunch people who were born in the states after their moms and dads fled Croatia after ww2 are talking on here. And what do you know I'm right .. Jadni ste
The problem isn't the court proceedings (this lawyer vs that lawyer); the problem is that Gotovina was at that court in the first place! I don't see Mladic being prosecuted.
Arrian, honestly dude, nobody is biting in your white vs black vs purple vs picka materina. Just stop.
Like I said before, the only color battles here are plavi vs. bili and crni vs crveni.
The sooner you understand that, the better.
"The only thing that you can do is to get married within your race (better yet, merry Croatian girl) and have at least two children."
——————————–
No, that's not the ONLY thing you can do. For one example, how about Croatia stop letting in non-white immigrants.
@JP, so the only way Croatia won't be "isolated" is if they join the EU? Bullshit! Did not Germany and Austria instantly recognize Croatian independence? Did not Germany, Austria & Turkey work together to supply arms to Croatia? Do you want Croatia to become "multi-cultural" (ie non-Croatian and non-White)? WTF are you talking about "heartbreak"? Are you anti-white?
@Ziva
Well said again.
I totally agree about the inexperience of our democracy, government, and leaders. When it comes to political games, we are not very polished yet. We expect truth to win-out, but politics is not about truth necessarily, it's about spin and optics, leverage, perception, and power.
If you watch some of the closing arguments of the trial you'll see this same kind of naive strategy pursued by the lawyers for Gotovina et al. The arguments that they give are rather compelling but the manner that they are given make the prosecution and the court look silly… they repeatedly call the accusations a "conspiracy" and the defense lawyers' personal frustration is apparent during their comments.
If you want to see the difference, watch Cermak's British lawyer and his approach… very polished and respectful.
Anyway, all in all this situation is a "test" for our Croatian people to see how far we have come… brute force rarely wins in the court of public and international opinion… the solution lies in giving the opposition a defeat where at the same time they can also "save face".
Courts rarely have "truth" as their goal, even though in theory they should… judges, prosecutors, etc., are all human beings too, and making people look foolish generally stiffens the opposition, rational or not.
Overall as a people we need to be less naive. Everyone knows that there are at least 3 sides to the truth; my truth, your truth, and then the real truth somewhere in between. It's obvious that for whatever reason (jealousy, envy, fear etc) we have some very determined enemies behind the scenes of things, and that's ok, everyone does, but we can't pretend like they don't exist or that "truth" will make them go away.
Anyway, my hope is that this moment in time will see us mature as a people to a much more sophisticated level where we stop giving our enemies all of the ammunition that they need to paint us into a corner.
Putting all the Ustasha stuff away is a major step in the right direction, especially for any public displays. We understand that for the most part these symbols are a source of pride at our independence, however to most other people these symbols signify Fascism and all the real and imagined evils that come with that.
This is just another example of where the truth doesn't matter, rather the optics/perception does.
Likewise, in regard to the EU… the Hague matter has nothing to do with the EU… it's a UN issue… very, very different from one another… Our enemies want us to blow-off the EU so that they get what they want, which is a weaker and isolated Croatia…
Lets use our heads in the service of our hearts for once!
If we do not, our heartbreak will continue.
@ziva
I agree with your family friend 100%. For the reason that we are small nation, it is not in our interest to join EU. Our leaders already lost the game with big dogs; they signed agreements that are not beneficial to us and they helped them to buy (take) everything that was worth anything. They created a few of Croatian tycoons and rest of Croatian people in a few generations will not owe anything in Croatia. Big dogs pulled us in NATO just because they need fresh meet to die for their gains, and now they want us in EU just to be on the top of us and tell us what to do. If we join EU our domovinski war was for nothing: we are just getting another supervisor. There is already so many Chinese people in Croatia (some having pizzeria – what do they know about pizza?), wait and see who will live there when we join EU.
@ Arrian
I agree with your comment about Japan. Why they didn’t take in those Chinese people that came all the way to Croatia. White people are more educated in general and they do not reproduce like rats, because they know that the Earth has its limits and we have to slow down reproduction since we live longer. Other races don’t follow. The only thing that you can do is to get married within your race (better yet, merry Croatian girl) and have at least two children.
@ Everybody
I have question: Does ICTY have a proof that Gotovina ordered war crimes committed during Oluja?
If this verdict stays, if opration Oluja is labeled as a criminal act, they spit on all the victims (every person raped, tortured and killed) of the war that blazed over Croatia and the UN was watching it and allowing it.
AB
I remember when the war finished up and before the Dayton peace accord was signed, a family friend who was connected to the governemnt had this say:
"We will pay the price 10 years down the line for some of the things that took place during the war because we are a small country and our own political leaders will not have the experience and the balls to make the right decisions."
Well, the timeline is up for debate, but everything lese has been true.
Just think of the constant problems had the Serbs not be cleared from Krajina – you might have had something similar to the Israeli-Palestinian never ending conflict.
@ Croat from Croatia – being rational about something always has 2 sides. I have only lived in Croatia for a very short time (1.5 years) so I would say you have far more experience than I do. regarding your comments about "Croats revenged by blood and almost 100 000 people moved away, and afterwards they couldn't return"…you know…in my fathers town the Croat population was always 90 – 95% Croatian…and yet the mayor of the city, the chief of the police, the professors in the universities, the government jobs were….yes, you guessed it…mostly Serbs! why? are Croatians stupid? i think not!
you have your perspective and i have mine. some areas of croatia were more populated by Serbs some less. some they integrated better some they didnt. how would you feel if your serb friend you grew up with started to show you a different face about politics and religion after the war started…you still want him as your neighbor??? sorry…odjebi…nije mi zao uopce!
Just want to be clear that I'm all for showing support for Gotovina through organized protests (and there is no statute of limitation on when these protests can occur); I just don't want to see Croatians screaming like those clown-teachers in Wisconsin. And regarding securing a lasting peace with the Serbs, once upon a time the Scots and English hated each other and fought many a war against each other – I'm not saying to create an Aryan-Slavic Kingdom, I'm just saying I don't want to see any more wars between us. The "international community" is suppossed to be about justice, peace and reconciliation and yet the Hague does nothing but sow seeds of vengeance – which eventually lead to more blood shed in the future.
Denis: "European countries are accepting immigrants because the locals(mostly white) are not having kids. Populations are shrinking in Eastern European countries and the only reason they are stable in Western European countries is because of immigration."
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That's not the reason for mass non-white immigration into white countries. Take the U.S. for example, when the treacherous anti-white commies passed the 1965 immigration act – the white population was increasing at a very healthy rate. And Eastern Europe is still recovering from Communism. And now we have commie-environmentalists convincing white people not to "increase the carbon footprint", we have a media incessantly pushing race mixing, governments FORCING "integration", "minorities"getting affirmative action and subsidized housing-on the white man's dime (ie we have to pay for our kids AND their kids!), etc.
@Denis & Jack, Japan can turn around their negative replacement rate in just one generation by simply having more babies; if whites simply start having more babies in the West they will still be minorities in their native lands and the countries they created because of mass non-white immigration and "assimilation" (ie inter-marriage).
@Slavonac from Canada… I repeat again… any violence made CAN NOT be justified. violence is violence and it doesn't matter who did it. you're behaving instinctively because 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth' simply doesn't work in modern civilization…
Serbs attacked Croats. OK, we're clear with that.
Croats defended themselves. We're as well cleared with that.
Croats wanted to gain their territory from the rebel Krajina Serbs. We're cleared with that.
Croats revenged by blood and almost 100 000 people moved away, and afterwards they couldn't return (there were several reasons about that… ). Which is definitely NOT ok by any moral and modern democracy which we WANT to be. But apparently, we're NOT and probably it will never change. That's why I would prefer we can exchange places. If you want to live in democracy like this, do come. You'll have a wonderful salary and lead a big expenses life 🙂 this is my last post because I'm fighting emotional-based windmills, and not people with rationality…
Stop feeding the troll, what does ante gotovina have to do with the white race disappearing, you guys are either highly uneducated or stupid.
@Arrian,
I understand where you are coming from, however, no one here(including myself) is on the same page with you here.
Like Jack Vrankovic said:
"Low birth rates amongst white populations pose a far greater threat than any other race can."
European countries are accepting immigrants because the locals(mostly white) are not having kids. Populations are shrinking in Eastern European countries and the only reason they are stable in Western European countries is because of immigration.
Your #1 approach should be to turn this trend around. If the white population continues not to reproduce, the white race will disappear on its own.
Start making babies!
Arrian
Are u stubborn or stupid or both? Why the F*** do u keep bringing up this race shit. Our war wasn't about race. We dislike serbs and I can give 2 shits about some african country or asian country as long as they don't try to kill our people like the serbs did. I don't give a fuck if serbs were black, white, yellow, or black it doesn't make a difference, they commited acts of genocide against our people. Again what does this shit have to do with race us stupid ****? We dislike the serbs for what they did to us and u think we she be friends because they are white, oh yea now I'm just gonna forgive them cause they are our "white brothers." Arrian stop hijacking our thread, p.s. before i said ur probably serbian, now I think your black.
@Arrian:
This will be my last response to this thread, as I feel it has been hijacked. Japan is an interesting country. They do not allow much immigration of any kind including fellow Asians. This is to their long term detriment.
Check out Stratfor.com. It is a great geopolitical site. Their free site isn't as robust as the pay service, but perhaps you may find it interesting.
Low birth rates amongst white populations pose a far greater threat than any other race can.
Sretan Uskrs
Everybody says there is this RACE problem. Everybody says this RACE problem will be solved when the third world pours into EVERY white country and ONLY into white countries.
The Netherlands and Belgium are just as crowded as Japan or Taiwan, but nobody says Japan or Taiwan will solve this RACE problem by bringing in millions of third worlders and quote assimilating unquote with them.
Everybody says the final solution to this RACE problem is for EVERY white country and ONLY white countries to “assimilate,” i.e., intermarry, with all those non-whites.
What if I said there was this RACE problem and this RACE problem would be solved only if hundreds of millions of non-blacks were brought into EVERY black country and ONLY into black countries?
How long would it take anyone to realize I’m not talking about a RACE problem. I am talking about the final solution to the BLACK problem?
And how long would it take any sane black man to notice this and what kind of psycho black man wouldn’t object to this?
But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing program of genocide against my race, the white race, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.
They say they are anti-racist. What they are is anti-white.
Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white.
Nationalsalvation.net, Whitakeronline.org
Google: None Dare Call it White Genocide
Is Japan not a prosperous country? They are 98.5% Japanese and practically 100% Oriental; Japanese children have a place to call their own; Japanese children won't be minorities in Japan. Orientals have a continent to call their own; Negros have a continent to call their own. Arabs have a continent to call their own. But White countries are required to to accept hundreds of millions of non-whites and forced to "integrate" with them and are bombarded by the all media to "assimilate" with them until the white race disappears. Was Jesus for the genocide of the White race? When Croats escaped communism, why didn't they go to prosperous Japan?
@ Arrian:
If you want to find out about mainstream Catholic views, read the Gospel of Our Lord.
St.Paul and Titus brought religion to Dalmatia shortly after Our Savior's ascension. It is our duty and birthrite to continue this rich tradition.
I have tried to respond with compassion, respect and my real name. Please take some time during the upcoming Easter holiday to reevaluate your positions.
Americans and Australians resented Croatians and other European immigrants in the past. It is my understanding that Aussies still call Croats " Wogs", as a derogatory term.
People from countries with poor economic climates always emigrate to prosperous countries. This is how it has always been.
Again, Croatians have every right to have animosity towards Serbs. What I'm saying is thus: the war on the eastern front in WWII was agruably the most vicious, violent war in human history; massive atrocities were committed by both sides, and now Germany and Russia are staunch allies never to war against each other again, and in fact this alliance acts as the bulwark for the White race.
"NO ENTRY INTO EU!"
Agreed.
Jack Vrankovic: "Enough with the WWII comments. 50-70 million people died. NOBODY had a monopoly on the misery including Jews and Croats."
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"nobody had a monopoly"….WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU CALL THE HOLOCAUST INDUSTRY? And if it was ALOT less than "six million", we are to just forget about it? I DONT FUCKIN THINK SO!
@Jack Vrankovic, what are main stream catholic views? That white children shouldn't be a majority in one country on earth? I really don't think the Catholic Church wants to see the white race and ONLY the white race disappear; afterall, it is largely White people who fund the Catholic church, no?
Would you call a policy of non-black mass immigration and “assimilation” for all black countries and ONLY black countries a program of genocide against black people?
Would you call a policy of non-Oriental mass immigration and “assimilation” for all Oriental countries and ONLY Oriental countries a program of genocide against Oriental peoples?
Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white.
Some of you guys need to outgrow your mommy professor college educations. The word Aryan is not "racist", it pre-dates Nazi Germany by about 4000 years. The original Croats were Aryans from ancient Persia. All I stated is that Serbs are anthropologically similar to us in the same way that Scots are similar to Irish, and that in a time when the white race is under siege all over the world it's counter-productive to be fighting other whites in "international" courts instead of trying to work out our differences directly.
First, I never equated Serb suffering or actions during the war to that of Croatia; I just stated that when you take everything into account (including the aftermath of the war), the Serbs (who were the aggressors) had their fair share of suffering. Second, I never stated to bring back Yugoslavia; what I'm saying is that without a lasting peace only more war and devastation will follow – for example the harsh Treaty of Versaills directly led to a more devastating World War just a few decades later. Third, look at what happened when you trusted the "international community".
I believe that if we as a country decide for something like this never to happen again, then we can not be anyone's pawn or in someone's pocket.
Pressure Points in Protest that can build up change.
1. No entry into the EU. The EU will serve us no good. We can not be afraid of financial manipulation. If you truely care about your country and are apart of the diaspora, move back and use your valuable skills and resources to build the country you love. That way we as croatians will not have to rely on a free enterprise centered EU govt which would have us in their hands for many years, dictate our lifestyle and erase our traditions/customs slowly.
We are not the type of country that would thrive on free trade global enterprise. We will lose that game within the big picture.We are simple, hard working people that love our land, live off the land and are proud of everything croatian. Hrvatska would thrive on fair trade, because I believe we are compasionate people that do not think about greed,but how we can help out one another. I think it will actually bring us closer together and stronger than ever.
NO ENTRY INTO EU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
sorry for the typo: our religion
I generally don't comment on Croatian politics, since I am American by birth and citizenship. However, here are my two cents: Gotovina's fate was determined by fellow Croats that would do anything to get into the EU.
@Arrian:
I took a look at the websites that you keep suggesting. They were exactly what I expected them to be.
Our ancestors fought communism and the Turks to protect or religion yet, you chose a different path. I pray that you find your way back to mainstream Catholic views.
You can not worship the Lord on your own terms. Blaspheming the Pope,St. Paul, apostolic succession, etc.. is heresy. Perhaps you should read all of your sites' content.
Please find the time to read/reread the Gospel of Our Lord. If you are pressed for time, I would suggest starting with The Book of James.
Enough with the WWII comments. 50-70 million people died. NOBODY had a monopoly on the misery including Jews and Croats.
God Bless you and your family during this holiest of seasons.
1.show support from croats across us
2.raise money for gotovina's defense through donations
3.have lots of media exposure
4.solidarity
After reading more and more of these comments, many are lacking clear objectivity for protests and what the likely outcome of protests will be. I understand that protesting is in itself a part of democracy, but what will you want to achieve. You need clear goals. By no means am I a critic of religion, but praying is not going to help you. You need to create goals for these protests. Goals such as funding for the defense team. Gotovina's defense team are intelligent hard working men, and they know how to fight it. The only way the court will side with our stance is if it can be proven. We can not let pure emotion dictate our objectivity. For example, to state that the serbs were the one's that were doing the butchering won't help the cause, because they are not on trial here. Unless it is your objective to start making it even on the playing field in terms of war criminals from serbia. Again, what will be the objectives.
@ Croat from Croatia – anyone can make a video like this…you know how many Croatian villages and towns had to deal with this? the problem is this happened to Croatian citizens in Croatia by Serbs!
i am 100% certain there is another side to this story…why would there have been thousands upon thousands of Serbs who were never bothered? if Croatians targeted Serbs there would be none there today…i am confident this was the result of a much longer video than 5:30!
if they prospered in Croatia, lived there for years and lived side by side with other Croatians…why wouldn't they have spoken against the greater Serbia when they could have?
Actually I think this is the sticker I'm going to have made with white lettering.
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/5016/gotovine2.png
@Slavonac from Canada… your relatives weren't the only ones affected there. I was there too. We had to run away several times. But still we have to face some facts even though we were defending ourselves…
if you didn't watch this documentary… do so (even though I don't think it will do anything for most of people here)… it has been screened on Croatian TV once and made by Croatian company. the producer died in a very suspicious car accident just 2 days after screening the documentary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IulcmlI1DC0&NR=1
I'm going to get a 12"x8" Sticker made of this.
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/8007/gotovine.png
Let me know if you interested
P.S. My prayers are with you guys from tonight, but I won't be able to make it.
PLEASE JOIN US TONIGHT in a prayer for our generals at 6:30 p.m. Mary Star of the Sea Church located at 870 West 8th Street, San Pedro, CA 90731, {(310) 833-3541}.
Gotovina je zrtvovano janje……
@anonymous,
Nothing yet has been announced for LA. We will keep you posted on all the protest news. Next up Berlin!
@Arryan,
I think you lost all your credibility with that last comment.
@ Denis
Whats the deal with protest in san pedro/LA are they happening?
@ arryan
ur an idiot, first off u are that small minority that give croatians a bad image, get the fuck over the arryan shit u racist bastard. Second, to call a serb ur brother, u must be serbian (or atleast part) or a yugo, go be friends with your brothers who raped, killed, and tortured our families. And I don't wanna here that bullshit that not all serbs were bad. Well they were bad enough to turn there backs on their neighbors and support the JNA.
stvarno nemogu vjerovat da ima smotani ludake kao arriyan, boze zacuvaj
"According to TV broadcaster Nova, support for EU accession has fallen down from 60 percent respondents one week ago to 35 percent now"
Just a little heads up, we will be updating this post with news and videos of upcoming protests. Please email us or comment under this post anything that we've missed.
We have scratched the "Hajduk's 100th" link on the right side of the page as "Ramadan" has officially ended. Clicking on the Gotovina picture on the home page will take you straight to this article.
So far I like what I see in Toronto and Melbourne.
@ Arrian – Serbs suffered too? ok, yes, you're right but I will say most of them had choices. many waited for their opportunity to join the Serb forces and then took the opportunity to strategize, give information and try to help their people IN CROATIA! How many of them stood up for whats was right? They lived in peace…ejoying every day life and when it came to either standing for whats right or turning on their neighbor…they chose to take the latter option…so i dont feel sorry for them. How can you explain that soo many of them are trying to move back but the neighborhood they left have a lot of animosity towards to them? why do you think that is? its not because they stayed there and were threatened…its because they were collaborating with the enemy. not one Serb in my selo was touched if they were good people, living normally…its the ones that tried to help Velika Srbija and then quickly left because they saw their plan wasn't working realizing they had to leave or ended up getting killed because they were traitors! if i lived in the US…and tomorrow canada attacked…I have 2 choices…fight for the place i live in and call home or help Canada by giving info and fighting against my neighbor! if I stayed and my neighbors knew I was a rat and allowing the opportunity for my fellow canadians to take over US soil…my destiny could end up really ugly…dont you agree Arrian?
Also, even I, Ante B., agree that the ustaštvo has no place in any upcoming protest. For this time, and this time alone, the spotlight is purely on our generals. As hard to type as this is, if you bring anything Ustaša related, the media will capture it and only focus on it…and the rest of the protest will go to waste.
It's hard to type it but it's true.
All of us go on emotion. Its part of our croatian blood. Sometime its good, sometimes its bad.
Those of who felt something when we watched the verdict or saw the reaction of some people crying on the trg, those are people that I want to be a part of.
@Zivek,
Ja sam se prekrizio kad sam procitao njegov comment…u ime Oca i Sina…
The only thing that irks me is needing 1,000 people. I know that this is done for media attention but even if that number is below 1,000, I still think it's worth it go for these reasons alone: ponos, cast, demokracija. Call me an idealist who thinks way too much on emotion.
Arrian……..are you part serb by chance or 10-years old???.
Deal with the serbs directly, you asked????The serbs ruled over us for how many years. What the hell did that get us in the end.
What the hell did the serbs suffer during the war? They only suffered because their own politicians screwed them. Last I checked, the serbs in serbia were never attacked by croatian forces.
Shelling of Dubrovnik, and the killings in Skabrnje and Vukovar….all of that was done ebfore Cro had a legit army to offer any type of response. We did nothing to the serbs.
boze moj, pa pitam sam sebe, skim ja uopce razgovaram.
Can't blame Croatians' animosity toward Serbs; however, the Serbs suffered alot too when you take the entire war into account. They are our Aryan brothers and sisters just like Germans and Russians. The Croatian war of Independence will have been wasted if a lasting peace with the Serbs is not secured. Instead of placing our fate in the "international" courts, why not deal with the Serbs directly? Instead of acting like a bunch 60's radical screaming jews or professional negro protesting puppets, go to the Serbs and Bosians and see what can be accomplished. Who knows, maybe they will help us cut the sentence to pieces in exchange for the retraction of other indictments in exchange for proper recompense. Be wary of leaving your destiny in the hands of "international" lawyas.
@ Croat from Croatia…although I live in Canada I have had a lot of discussions with my family back home…particularly in Slavonija. my direct family was heavily affected by the war…my nephew and neice saw more than they should have at such a young age…my families neighbors (Serbs) who lived their entire lives side by side showed their true colors once the Serbs (JNA army) came close and were gaining ground. I can't imagine the betrayal felt by the local Croatians…people went from neighbors to a Fuc*$@# moving target over night…i know this…my sister had to move away from her home because it was too dangerous!
I can just imagine how one could want revenge, I can imagine how one could feel an overwhelming amount of betrayal, frustration, scared for their lives….Cedo's were viciously overpowering innocent people and doing heinous crimes….raping, cutting off limbs/fingers, other bady parts to leave their mark! many of this happened when Croatia had very little to defend with…when Croatia thought the world would intervene and support democracy…help the innocent and justfully and rightfully stop the aggression of a barbaric people.
I'd like to see this shown very clearly to the world…the sequence of events that took place…how we democratically asked for our independance…how we were attacked in our own homes….how we had to use primitive weapons to defend ourselves…the atrocities our mothers/sisters/fathers/children/grandparents….suffered…the choices our people took under the circumstances were a huge challenge…some lost sight of reality, of hope, of faith and some lost everything and felt there was nothing left to live for! I wish we had a person, an organization a group that could express our situation…its one thing to say a man was responsible for others actions…its another thing to show what happened and provide the bigger picture!
general Ante Gotovina helped stop this…he was instrumental in freeing our people just like the rest of Europe and the world was doing. if this was America, Israel, Italy, Mexico…there would be Hollywood movies made about the heroism of this man…but he has been unjustfully villified, made a war criminal, slandered…I don't think any Nation would stand for this
@slavonac….US Generals do take the fall. They don't go to jail, but they don't receive a promotion or a new assignment. They don't go to jail. But, we only have ourselves to blame. Tudjman signed (was forced) the Dayton peace accord. By signing that document he gave the ICTY the power to investigate Croatia for war crimes. That is why I applaus the US when tehy tell the UN there is no way they will sign a document allowing another foreign body to judge their soldiers actions during war.
There is so much more to this than what can be written on messages boards. Tudjman and his people probably screwed up by not allowing Gotovina to talk with the Hague investigators when they first requested to speak with the generals. At that point in time Tudjman was probably looking to save his own ass and that of those close to him.
@Slavonac from Canada
how 'bout responsibility?
those soldiers in Iraq got charged and went to prison, so that's why their generals didn't take the fall…
here almost no one got charged for the irresponsible actions. that behaviour was well tolerated and everybody knows that but no one talked about it publicly. it was all about revenge.
try to kill a burglar in your own house in Canada when you could have called the police. and then try to get away with it then and say on court 'it was because he took my TV'… 🙂
nice overview of everything…
http://www.tportal.hr/komentari/komentatori/123006/Zasto-bezocno-lazu-da-presuda-osporava-legitimitet-Oluje.html
ziva istina makes a very good point…a few in fact…we need to be responsible and show an organized and respected way of standing behind our hero's and not walking the streets wearing ustasa gear allowing the serbs an opportunity to discredit us!
on another note…i was at a friends house yesterday…one of his sons (18 years old) was at a party on saturday night…mostly croatian kids…he said the topic of discussion was ante gotovina! i thought it was cool…these young kids care and talk about it!
organizing and being involved in protests is a good idea…regardless of what part of the world we live in…i think we all have a responsibility to support our hero/hero's!
i think the question today is how can a man like gotovina have the responsibility of several men who very well may have been mentally affected during that period of time? i think many soldiers in war deal with a lot of issues…from what i've heard they drink a lot…have suffered heavy losses within their own families (thus the reason for going to the war in some cases) and i'm not sure if its fair to say but how can gotovina be responsible for men in a terrible state of mind doing acts he didn't order them to do? i know it sounds stupid but i've heard and read several stories of men doing absolutely crazy things in Iraq…and then getting charged and going to prison…but i don't recall their generals taking the fall for their irresponsible acts…does this make sense?
I hope everyone is able to organize a successful protest/demonstration, but depending on the size of the crowds and in what communities these take place, don't expect much media coverage, at least in the US.
This verdict registered in the outlets like the NY Times and Wall Street Journal, but it was nothing more than briefs in the world or international portion of most TV news broadcasts or newspapers.
Unless we are able to get over 1,000 people at these rallies, don't bank on any extensive media coverage.
I know this was a problem in the past during the early 90's, but lets make sure we have educated, confident, well-spoken, professionals giving remarks. Having the local priests/monks also helps.
I'm the first the value our history, but for the good of public perception, no ustase or NDH gear at these rallies. If you want to kill credibility, you will do that by brining any of that with you (shirts, caps, etc..) All any zid or serbs has to do is point out "hey see what that guy has, that symbolizes a group that sided with the nazis during WWII." Keep it at home.
Just my opinion here, but no rallies or demonstrations should take place after Wednesday of this week. It's holy week for us catholics and nothing out of the ordinary should be taking place from Thursday-Sunday.
its people like mishko that make the rest of the normal croatians look like morons.
@Questions. Finally! Some questions…
1. The main achievement is that it shows solidarity among the Croatians in the dijaspora and as Croatian-Americans and Canadians, it is our constitutional right to protest and go out onto the streets to voice our displeasure as long as it is peaceful.
2. Absolutely; especially after the protests in Toronto and Melbourne. Two days after the decision, Melbourne had about 2,500 demonstrators. Imagine if all of the cities that have established Croatian communities in them did the same thing. The key is not to back down, continue protesting in larger numbers and again, to never back down. I guarantee you it will make the news outlets.
3. Because there are Croatian communities all over the world, not just Europe. If the communities in Germany, Switzerland, Austria, etc. would like to join, then it's perfect but since CSR's main demographics are Croatians from North America, we only focused on them. Also, imagine if the news outlets say the protests have been happening all over the world…that would be only a benefit to us in the long run.
4. It is cliche but what about the ideals that make America great: fair trials, due process, democracy and protests. I think it's worth it to at least try to make a difference and get out there.
If anybody else would like to add anything I might have skipped out, let me know. It's time to take a stand and not put our tail between our legs.
You might have a job, school, or something else but I think it's your duty to show your support of Gotovina. Otherwise, you're just a fake who likes to wear a checkered shirt. Take action. Less talk, more walk.
Zivio Ante Gotovina
Some questions to throw out there.
1. What achievements will protests in America produce? How will these protests significantly impact the appeal process besides possibly raising more funds for the defense team?
2. Do you really think that the outcome of a trial among Croatian generals will spark any real attention from U.S media or other powerful countries besides Germany or Canada?
3. If the croatian diaspora are considering to protest the trial, why not conduct it in Europe where there would be a much greater impact than in American, Canadian, or Australian cities?
4. Are there any real significant interests/gains that America would have by intervening with this trial.
Anonymous, I love how people use the tired method of name calling i.e. racist, bigot, anti-semite, holocaust denier, and on and on and on. Yet, the fact is, people that have no arguement always name call.
So who's the real idiot?
Do yourself a favor and watch how the terrorist JTF are going after Croatia for fabricated WWII crimes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft24XkbjPBk
These are the same people that are going after Gotovina.
Does anyone know the prosecutors names so we can find out their background etc. That will lead to the truth.
I read this book called 'Das Reich' – The Military Role of the 2nd SS Division; the book has nothing to do with nor does it mention the "holocaust". Besides, Das Reich was too busy fighting the Russians amongst others. One of the main lessons I learned from that book is that "six million" was logistically impossible.
mishko you are an idiot
Well by the looks of it, were not going to get any progress done, quit the bitching and crying. Lets start up donations and plans for these demonstrations, set up facebook boards and cells through out cities, get everyone together to demonstrate.
The Hague? Is this the same place they torchered Nazi's into confessions and admit to crimes about the Holohoax? Where confessions were so far fetched that they were impossible.
Well the Hague and it's puppets can kiss my white Croatian ass.
Is this guy kidding me? The operation was backed, funded and green lighted by the USA. How can they (the West) turn it on us and call it a criminal enterprise? If that's the case why don't they charge the American military, who made operation storm possible? Gotovina is taking the fall because the West fears he will run for office if he gets acquitted and rally the nationalists, thus they want him behind bars. Don't be shocked if he gets poisoned like Milosevic while in the Hague.
just a clarification anonymous above me is not davor bakovic lol.
does anyone know where we can buy tshirts?
Speaking as someone who was actually there during the war and not as the grandkid of some dude who hoped that the distance of the Atlantic would keep him safe from UDBA…
The guy deserved it. He was the highest ranking officer in charge, and as such he had an obligation to stop the war crimes and the ethnic cleansing. Now, was he the only one responsible? No. Would the warcrimes still have happened even if he wasn't there? Yes, they would have.
But he is still responsible as the commanding officer.
//davorb
"Jako sam razočaran. Nadao sam se čitajući vrlo argumentiranu obranu da će presuda biti oslobađajuća. Moram priznati da sam šokiran, kako s osobnim presudama generalima tako i s presudom za Hrvatsku koja ispada zločinačka država", ~Slaven Bilić
It's like the movie Brave Heart, in the end it was a few of his own people (politicians) who sold out the hero.
@Ziva
Totally agree with you here. Gotovina is taking the fall for the actions of our civilians/soldiers in the territories recaptured after Oluja. In this way he continues to be our hero.
I also don't think that anyone is denying that these "crimes" were indeed committed after Oluja, as Ziva points out.
So in a sense it's those individuals that created these crimes that have sentenced Gotovina.
If Gotovina wasn't the General during this time, it's likely that these crimes would have been much worse. The Baric film (which is excellent, kudos Mr. Baric!) is compelling in this regard. The footage of Gotovina chastising his officers shows the character of this man. And it makes me proud to have him as one of our own.
Anyway, I think it's really important that we as Hrvati keep our wits about us during this situation lest we spoil much of the good work we have done. Although his conviction seems like an indictment on our war of defense, it is not. It's about the crimes thereafter.
This whole situation tastes bitter and feels wrong for many reasons especially when we consider the many atrocities that we withstood during the war. And I think that this is where we need to focus now… we need to bring all of the Serbs to justice and have their crimes exposed over and over again, so that the proper balance is created.
In other words, if I'm the Croatian government right now, I go on a major political/diplomatic offensive looking for Mladic.
Where's Mladic, where's Mladic? And I don't stop with this refrain until he is found and brought to the same court. I introduce sanctions/embargo into the UN against Serbia until he's found. I do the same in the EU and everywhere else.
We've proven that we are willing to submit to law, they (Serbs) have not. Until they do, they should be scorned from the modern world.
This likely won't get Ante & Markac out of jail any quicker, but it will restore the real historical balance of what happened. And bring those evil cocksuckers to justice.
Let's not attack each other when someone presents a viewpoint that we may differ with. The clear-headed croat offers a viewpoint that actually does have some merit.
Its clear as day the Hague was going to go after Tudjman, Bobetko and Susak. All three died, so next in line were generals in the field, led by Gotovina.
We all know the verdict is crap and allowing an outside body to judge our own is idiotic. But, and this is a big but, Tudjman gave the UN and the ICTY the authority to investigate all crimes. Was he forced into it, yes, but as soon as the Dayton accord was signed, we gave up that right to try our own in a court room.
Now, were war crimes committed during Oluja….yes. For us to say there were not is lying. But, how do those war crimes compare to what the serbs did in Vukovar, Skabrnje, to the muslims in Srebrenica, and other locations….its not even close.
If there is one flaw with Oluja its the individual soldiers who could not control themselves and committed the war crimes. In my opinion it was not systematic, so I don't know how you can blame Gotovina for that, but its much easier to go after the commander than your rank-and-file soldier.
The serbs are demanding the cro govt. removes Aug.5 as a holiday. fuck, if our elected officials had any spine they would make a Aug. 4 and Aug. 6 a holiday as well just to rub it in.
fuck your an idiot 'Clear headed Serb' Piss off
let's learn for start the definition of the ICTY…
'The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) is a United Nations court of law dealing with war crimes that took place during the conflicts in the Balkans in the 1990’s'
so if there's must be someone to blame, blame the UN… blame whole the world…
it's absolutely not questionable that Croatia with the operation Storm regained it's internationally recognized borders. the operation itself is legitimate!
the question and the main 'sin' of it is what has happened later? people who lived there couldn't return easily at their houses because
a) they were burned and robbed (if you have lived here in Croatia you could have seen that people were robbing from those houses doors, furniture, bathtubs, TV's, even bloody electric sockets! and later selling it on black markets… )
b) they were occupied by Croatian families, mostly from Bosnia
Gotovina is actually nothing more than the 'blame the Pedro' because all other people who are to be blamed about it are actually … dead… (Tudjman, Susak and the others) – and they didn't actually did nothing, but at the same time they did nothing to prevent it or even put in the process croatians who did this in pure vengeance. And any court in the world doesn't justify 'vengeance'.
I'm personally at a loss for words. I have never seen such a botched decision in my life, especially after the Croatian generals already served 6 years.
The UN remained neutral the entire time, however, when a greater power decides to do nothing (the UN), it favors the aggressor (Serbia).
That's like a mom doing nothing when her eldest son is pummeling the younger brother. Or when a burglar breaks into your house, cuts his hand on glass in the process and then has the ability to sue the houseowner.
These examples are clear cut of who the wrong-doer is. War is usually one-sided. And we know what side Croatia was on…we had to defend. Simple as that and we got the job done.
What ever happened to "All is fair in Love and War?" Does that not apply anymore?
Check out what Jack Baric, director of 'Searching For A Storm', says at the 7:00 mark of the following interview. He researched Gotovina from his days in France and knows Hague policies inside and out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmolhbvjXYI&feature=player_embedded
This ruling is ridiculous. So let me get this straight, Serbia attacks Croatia. Croatia defends itself and reclaims its own territory and this is what the Hague ruled a "criminal enterprise?" So what exactly was Croatia suppose to do write the Serbs post cards asking them nicely to leave? If this is the international standard for war crimes then you can indict every living American president and members of their administration for war crimes.
This international court is a joke.
Please join us in the greater Los Angeles area/San Pedro in supporting our wrongly convicted heroes Ante Gotovina and Mladen Markač. Our protest is in the process of being organized and as soon as the time and location is known we will need the support of CROATS from all over to bring to light this tragedy.
Hvala vam
BOG i HRVATI
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_197327083636549
I am only referring to the Croats in US and Canada as this article is about them.
Tudmane, and others:
What city are you guys in? Will you join and organize your own protest? If so, let us know.
Sve za Hrvatsku
Picka mu materina Stipe Mesicu who sold out our boys.
@Ante B- You are joking right? If Croats actually stuck together (I'm not talking about the one's in the US), he never would have been captured.
I respect the Serbians for the fact that they never gave up Ratko Mladic. Meanwhile, we gave up our hero Gotovina who defended our land.
Once the war was over, we opened Chetnik war criminals back with open arms while the Serbs stuck to their guns.
Gotovina heroj forever!
Maybe some of the other front line veterans can go pay a visit to holland to see "what's up". I liked Mladic's defence; I don't recognize this court. Put Bush, Obama and all of the NATO country presidents and prime ministers in the same court for killing Afghan and Iraqi civilians.
For those who might think we forgot about Markac, we did not. The full mantra behind this protest will be:
NEMA DOMOVINE BEZ GOTOVINE
BITKA ZA MARKACA JE SADA SVE JACA
Last year Jack Baric came to Chicago promoting his film. I was at the screening here at our Centar and picked up a copy afterward. A great piece.
If anybody who is knowledgable in what is needed for a peaceful demonstration (paperwork from the city, permits from the police, hardware, etc.), please let us know immediately so we can get started with planning.
When our back are against the wall, Hrvati will always remain together.
Neka vide da nas ima!
BOG I HRVATI
ZA DOM SPREMNI
"The judges ruled that Croatia’s political leadership, including the late president, were also guilty by association. Croatia’s prime minister said Friday the government would take all possible legal steps to annul those findings on appeal. Croatia agreed to cooperate with the UN trial in order to join the European Union."
Now the Croatian government will appeal after the verdict includes the Croatian government. However, za Gotovinu, boli ih Kurac! Poseri te se na evropsku uniju
I was actually so put down this morning when I saw the verdict that (i had quit smoking for years) bought a pack of cigarettes and listened to Thompson and Skoro on a long drive to work.
He took the fall for others who sold him out and took a jail sentence that was not supposed to go to him.